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Author Topic:   A Q for the Pros : Balancing
Syntaks
WarLord

Posts: 231
From:
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 08 December 2001 10:23     Click Here to See the Profile for Syntaks   Click Here to Email Syntaks        Reply w/Quote   
So, if I go through with my one test character, balancing monster difficulties and experience gaining, and find a nice clean balance, will that balance still pertain when , say, 5 characters play the mod?

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"Embrace this moment, remember/ we are immortal, all this pain is an illusion"

-Tool

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jbouley
Forum Admin.

Posts: 4907
From: Portland, Maine, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08 December 2001 12:34     Click Here to See the Profile for jbouley   Click Here to Email jbouley        Reply w/Quote   Visit jbouley's Homepage!
Not necessarily.

I found this problem with my mod for classic D2. As soon as people started doing multiplayer ove LANs or whatever, they complained that they mowed through the monsters. The ratched up of HPs in multiplayer simply wasn't enough for a lot of folks.

I finally ended up making a mod specifically for multiplayer in which I upped resistances, increased size of monster groups, increased the numbers of champions and uniqyes, increased speed of monsters immensely, boosted damage, boosted monster skill levels, added etype damage to their normal melee attacks and much else.

I didn't do the same thing to all the monsters, and some were made much more powerful than others so that players couldn't predict what they would have to fight against in terms of massive damage or defense or speed or whatever.

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- JEFF
"A hero is no braver than anyone else. He is only brave five minutes longer."
For my latest mod (for LoD/expansion), download at http://www.fileplanet.com/dl/dl.asp?/planetdiablo/phrozenkeep/mods/sic_beta.zip - Or for old stuff (for classic D2), visit my orignal mod site at www.planetdiablo.com/sanctuary

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Syntaks
WarLord

Posts: 231
From:
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 08 December 2001 13:48     Click Here to See the Profile for Syntaks   Click Here to Email Syntaks        Reply w/Quote   
*sigh*

That's what I'm afraid of...

I'm making my mod with my gaming group in mind, so it looks like there's going to be a bunch of playtesting going on ..

Did you try using the x5 trick or such? Wonder if that'll give me a good idea what it'll look like..

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"Embrace this moment, remember/ we are immortal, all this pain is an illusion"

-Tool

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jbouley
Forum Admin.

Posts: 4907
From: Portland, Maine, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08 December 2001 16:19     Click Here to See the Profile for jbouley   Click Here to Email jbouley        Reply w/Quote   Visit jbouley's Homepage!
Here are a few things, if I am recalling correctly, that I did for multiplay:

I would double, triple or in some cases quadruple the base hit points. Once the multiplay multiple is applied to that, it makes the monsters hardier.

I gave most monsters a decent amount of cold resistance to protect against cold-sorc/barbarian team-ups. I also made a fair number of them immune to cold.

I increased velocity of monsters by 50% to 100%.

I increased AC and Attack Ratings of all monsters...in some cases by a factor of 3 or 4...though in most cases by 1.5 to 2.

Most spellcasters got at least a 1-level boost to their skills.

Many monsters got high damage regeneration values.

Those were the key things I did...I think

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- JEFF
"A hero is no braver than anyone else. He is only brave five minutes longer."
For my latest mod (for LoD/expansion), download at http://www.fileplanet.com/dl/dl.asp?/planetdiablo/phrozenkeep/mods/sic_beta.zip - Or for old stuff (for classic D2), visit my orignal mod site at www.planetdiablo.com/sanctuary

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Syntaks
WarLord

Posts: 231
From:
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 09 December 2001 07:39     Click Here to See the Profile for Syntaks   Click Here to Email Syntaks        Reply w/Quote   
Aye, but did it screw up single play?

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Khan
Moderator

Posts: 373
From:
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09 December 2001 07:43     Click Here to See the Profile for Khan   Click Here to Email Khan        Reply w/Quote   Visit Khan's Homepage!
Beg you pardon: You INCREASED AR? even Further? Well then I guess you could remove the idea of defense rating alltogether too. I mean if ARs of monster are even higher than they are in CLoD then you would need DR in ten to hundreds of thousands to lower you behit% to less then 50%.

(shrug)

But somehow I suspect you just didn't tell us how you countered this, by perhaps granting more DR for high-end armor or increasing blockrate (blocklock?) or something more sophisticated, right?


Anyway, how about removing the bonus system for muliple players altogher? I know this should better go in the code-editing forum but it fits here too. I think the game could be much better balanced if there was no increase in HP and XPs and drop% for more players in game. If we remember D1, we can see that this worked pretty well. Of course drops are getting low for multiple players but on the other hand more players kill much faster and thus more drops...

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www.VKmods.de

Middle Earth Mods

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Myokai
Honorary Warlord

Posts: 298
From: Entsteig, Sanctuary
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 09 December 2001 11:23     Click Here to See the Profile for Myokai   Click Here to Email Myokai        Reply w/Quote   
The game is not, and can never be balanced. Because of the stupid % based damage, but also because of the corpse issue.

SF, Thorns, SoB, Conversion, Mindblast and just about the entire necro tree all improve with tougher monsters instead of staying the same.

Currently in my mod Revive is wildly overpowered, because it also gets the monster improvements. Fifty revives flatten everything even with a Skeleton Mastery that has gotten the hell nerfed out of it, and they flatten everything just as good in Hell Act4 players-8 than in Normal Act1 players-1. Even without any HP improvement they still kill everything, if only by sheer numbers. Groups are never bigger than 50 monsters, so if you have 50 of the same kind of monster you will always win, and can just revive the dead monsters to replace the ones that fell. Until now, the only challenge for a Revive necro is actually making the first corpses...

I will try to set the HP bonus to a negative number and see what happens. Who knows, if it works it might actually nerf revives enough to discourage players to use it except when the revives are really good.

Same with corpse explosion. In beta 0.3 I plan on making the skill do 5% of their hit points, and greatly up the damage of poison explosion. Stiull not perfectly balanced because of the corpse issue, but at least not as bad as Corpse Explosion.

Maybe this is the only way to bring a bit of balance into the game;... by nerfing all percentage based skills until they are no longer an option.

Sad...

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Playing with fire . . .
will get you BURNED!

LoD Inferno status: beta 0.2 uploaded to Jeff and will be available on the Phrozen Keep next update; beta 0.3 in the works

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jbouley
Forum Admin.

Posts: 4907
From: Portland, Maine, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09 December 2001 12:11     Click Here to See the Profile for jbouley   Click Here to Email jbouley        Reply w/Quote   Visit jbouley's Homepage!
Well, the thing of it is:

I only did my multiplay mod for classic D2...I only offer my insights as a starting point.

Yes, it would royally screw up single-play...that's why I made a separate mod specifically for multiplayers. The basics were the same, the only thing I changed was boosted power and numbers of monsters, and nerfing some sorc cold skills to prevent cold sorc and whirlwind barbs from being an invincible combination.

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- JEFF
"A hero is no braver than anyone else. He is only brave five minutes longer."
For my latest mod (for LoD/expansion), download the Preview of Sanctuary in Chaos vesion 1 - Or for old stuff (for classic D2), visit my orignal mod site at www.planetdiablo.com/sanctuary

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Mephansteras
Moderator

Posts: 970
From: San Diego, CA USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10 December 2001 12:34     Click Here to See the Profile for Mephansteras   Click Here to Email Mephansteras        Reply w/Quote   Visit Mephansteras's Homepage!
Hmm...you know, I've never actually gotten any feedback on multiplayer in my mod. I THINK it'd be okay, if easier, but I really don't know. Hmm...I'll have to get some friends togeather and see if I can get a good test run going.

Or perhaps I can get some other group to test as well. *SIGH* My players just don't tell me enough. Does anyone else have that problem?
I've got about 200 downloads of the current version of my mod, a quite a few who I'm sure are using the older versions, and I get maybe two people who ever give me feedback besides my two local friends who play it. (Oh, well...I guess I'll just assume that I've got my mod to such a high level of perfection noone has anything to complain about. )

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-Mephansteras

Don't take life to seriously -- you'll never get out of it alive!

Download my mod: Tides Of War

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NefariusDX
Honorary Warlord

Posts: 1392
From: The Hadal Abyss of Eternal Oblivion
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 10 December 2001 13:52     Click Here to See the Profile for NefariusDX   Click Here to Email NefariusDX        Reply w/Quote   Visit NefariusDX's Homepage!
Hmm as much as i remeber my XyRAX mod was pretty much balanced in difficulty after v7.0, but only if the ppl that play it are after a challenge (Like defeat a 60 mill hp) enemy or stuff like this (dont say thats not balanced if you didnt see for yourself!)

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quote:
there is a reason why your here. and there is a reason for whats now...

XyRAX v21.00B (the barnyard of Danger) coming soon!!!

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54x
Moderator

Posts: 3080
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10 December 2001 19:17     Click Here to See the Profile for 54x   Click Here to Email 54x        Reply w/Quote   Visit 54x's Homepage!
To nerf revive: Decrease the duration sharply to something like 35 seconds/revive.

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54x.
"My computer has wheels on giant stilts that allow me to drive it over all the other, slower computers."
"For great bandwidth!"
http://www.planetdiablo.com/newdawn/
New Dawn Forum

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Syntaks
WarLord

Posts: 231
From:
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 11 December 2001 08:07     Click Here to See the Profile for Syntaks   Click Here to Email Syntaks        Reply w/Quote   
Not only that, but make the mana drain ungodly...

Too bad you can't make the requirements (like dex or magic) rise along with the skill ..

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"Embrace this moment, remember/ we are immortal, all this pain is an illusion"

-Tool

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Myokai
Honorary Warlord

Posts: 298
From: Entsteig, Sanctuary
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 11 December 2001 09:44     Click Here to See the Profile for Myokai   Click Here to Email Myokai        Reply w/Quote   
quote:
Originally posted by Mephansteras:
*SIGH* My players just don't tell me enough. Does anyone else have that problem?

15 downloads. A request for FEEDBACK. 0 replies. 1, actually, but I already knew him before the mod went gold.

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LoD Inferno status: beta 0.2 can be downloaded at http://www.fileplanet.com/dl/dl.asp?/planetdiablo/phrozenkeep/mods/inferno.zip

Final version 1.0 about to be sent in to the Phrozen Keep.

Playing with fire . . .
will get you BURNED!

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Forsaken
Honorary Warlord

Posts: 397
From: Dutch guy in France
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 12 December 2001 05:14     Click Here to See the Profile for Forsaken   Click Here to Email Forsaken        Reply w/Quote   
LOL. And that from someone who isn't even particularly interested in playing the mod. My sorceress got killed 5 times before I killed my first act 1 normal zombie...

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So much bandwidth, so little time

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Syntaks
WarLord

Posts: 231
From:
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 12 December 2001 07:57     Click Here to See the Profile for Syntaks   Click Here to Email Syntaks        Reply w/Quote   
quote:
Originally posted by Forsaken:
LOL. And that from someone who isn't even particularly interested in playing the mod. My sorceress got killed 5 times before I killed my first act 1 normal zombie...

Now, see .. that's just not right....

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"Embrace this moment, remember/ we are immortal, all this pain is an illusion"

-Tool

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Forsaken
Honorary Warlord

Posts: 397
From: Dutch guy in France
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 12 December 2001 08:36     Click Here to See the Profile for Forsaken   Click Here to Email Forsaken        Reply w/Quote   
Well, actually it is. At the very least it allowed me to finally see what it looks like when a sorceress dies, I never got to that point before. And I think quite a lot of people agree that sorceresses dying aren't necessarily a bad thing...unless they're your sorceresses, that is...

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So much bandwidth, so little time

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Syntaks
WarLord

Posts: 231
From:
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 12 December 2001 09:08     Click Here to See the Profile for Syntaks   Click Here to Email Syntaks        Reply w/Quote   
quote:
Originally posted by Forsaken:
LOL. And that from someone who isn't even particularly interested in playing the mod. My sorceress got killed 5 times before I killed my first act 1 normal zombie...

Now, see .. that's just not right ..

I wouldn't want to play a game that takes me tht long to kill the first creature

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"Embrace this moment, remember/ we are immortal, all this pain is an illusion"

-Tool

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Apocalypse Demon
Moderator

Posts: 4023
From: Mississauga, Ontario
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 12 December 2001 17:02     Click Here to See the Profile for Apocalypse Demon   Click Here to Email Apocalypse Demon        Reply w/Quote   
Well, my mod isn't more like changing the game rapidly but basically making it the ultimate balanced "patch" for LOD. And, I have revamped many monsters skills, dmg, hp, etc to reasonable levels, nerfed those Burizas, Lightsabers and increased other uniques that should be better(Shadowfang, Azurewrath). I have also pretty much balanced out the rares to how they used to be before LOD(the perfect rare would always be better than the unique but much rarer also). I added all runewords, all elite uniques from the beta, all act bosses and my favourite: Made two Act bosses Azmodan and Belial and stuffed them WITH BAAL in the Worldstone chamber so you fight them all at once. And Bloody Foothills are actually challenging now as well as other places like Pindleskin(no more easy hunting anymore, I put a pack of Night Lords near the doorway as well as Black Souls). Many many other things that I can't list right now. Seriously, I must say my mod is very similar to the real game, just extremely balanced, more difficult for both multiplayer and single player and also a few really cool add ins as well. I didn't really change the game play extremely like Zoulomcrist did with his mod but I'm planning to do something like that for my second mod. Hopefully, I might send my first mod to blizz and perhaps they will make it as a patch? Anyone believe blizz will actually do that??? Chances might be slim but we can always pray.

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God gave me a brain to use but I miserably failed to use it to my advantage

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Khan
Moderator

Posts: 373
From:
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 13 December 2001 06:01     Click Here to See the Profile for Khan   Click Here to Email Khan        Reply w/Quote   Visit Khan's Homepage!
Yea, they don't fix the obvious critical hit bug but they undertake the great work to look into some totally changed version of their game sent in by some modder...

I'm afraid we have to continue to do the work . The best we can hope for is that Blizz doesn't patch too often and does not hinder us in modding the game.
In the past they have been quite cooperative regarding moddability I would say (that's not ironic).

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www.VKmods.de

Middle Earth Mods

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Forsaken
Honorary Warlord

Posts: 397
From: Dutch guy in France
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 13 December 2001 06:17     Click Here to See the Profile for Forsaken   Click Here to Email Forsaken        Reply w/Quote   
Perhaps the first step for all of us modders would be to convince Blizzard to include a link to the Keep on their website. This at the very least would be a sign of recognition of our existence...

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So much bandwidth, so little time

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Syntaks
WarLord

Posts: 231
From:
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 13 December 2001 07:39     Click Here to See the Profile for Syntaks   Click Here to Email Syntaks        Reply w/Quote   
quote:
Originally posted by Forsaken:
Well, actually it is. At the very least it allowed me to finally see what it looks like when a sorceress dies, I never got to that point before. And I think quite a lot of people agree that sorceresses dying aren't necessarily a bad thing...unless they're your sorceresses, that is...



You've got a point there.. I'm actually playing hardcore right nore simply for the challenge. I don't know if they've made it easier through the patches and whatnot, but it's just not the same. I remember Beta testing D2 when it first came out. Blood Raven was a b***h! Now, I can take a level 1 barbarain straight out of the camp and pound her to the ground without breaking a sweat.

Definitely a need for a challenge in the game now..

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"Embrace this moment, remember/ we are immortal, all this pain is an illusion"

-Tool

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Forsaken
Honorary Warlord

Posts: 397
From: Dutch guy in France
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 13 December 2001 08:31     Click Here to See the Profile for Forsaken   Click Here to Email Forsaken        Reply w/Quote   
I doubt they really made it easier. In fact, I'm sure they didn't. We just got too good at the game...

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So much bandwidth, so little time

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